Monday, June 28, 2010

Poor Excuses

It was a sad day in church yesterday.  The devil and people’s selfishness ruled the day.  Yesterday, I saw a church hold politics and techni

It was a sad day in church yesterday. The devil and people’s selfishness ruled the day. Yesterday, I saw a church hold politics and technicalities over the calling of God. Our pastor, who’s only crime was being a human being like the rest of us, was forced from the pulpit by a vote in a meeting that was a poor example of what a church should be. I had been witness to so much hatred, ignorance, and ill will toward the people of the English congregation that it pains me to even think about stepping back through the doors of CCUC. Church is not about the rule of some constitution and it’s not about the control that one person, who will remain nameless, seems to have over his congregation, it’s about love and leading people toward love. There was no example of that yesterday.

Yesterday’s meeting was a farce! A vocal and public few who dislike Pastor Green took control of the meeting for over an hour explaining to 2 congregations how the English Pastor is in a sense, not in control of his feelings, hurtful, spiteful, greedy, and a poor representative of what a leader in the church should be. All accusations were given without context, overblown, and without chance of defense from anyone or the pastor himself, in order to clearly remove him from his “calling.” When some were finally given time to represent the views, both through statistically relevant research and through personal experience, they were in comparison only given 1 minute each to speak with that cut down by translation to Cantonese or cut down by the moderator himself who seemed at times very much part of this conspiracy.

Yes, there’s something wrong with this. 3 years ago, we all agreed it was God’s calling that Pastor Green join us in leading the English congregation. That hasn’t changed. God did not come down from the heavens and say, “It is time for Pastor Green to move on,” or “This man is not right for your church!” No, in fact in the face of all this, Pastor Green has remained composed and loving toward our congregation and our church that has shown so much hatred. That’s the biggest issue. Our church has allowed a select few church leaders and now adds to that improperly informed people in other congregations to overrule God’s calling! Clearly all the good that has been committed in the previous 3 years has been overlooked and an unfair weight was given to a few instances where Pastor’s humanity shown through, all to overrule God. When a church allows politics and hate to overrule God, yes, there’s a problem there.

I’ll probably shock some and make some enemies with this open letter but if people didn’t notice the total disregard and unfair treatment by at least 2 leaders yesterday, you are blind, pure and simple. It was an AMA meeting held just for the sake of having one and orchestrated to give the impression that an informed church together overruled God’s calling. I’m very disappointed in the behavior of some of the leaders in other congregations that I had hoped to serve with and some I already serve with who showed timidness and bowing down to their leader’s pressure. I too was timid, I couldn’t find the words to speak yesterday, but I have them now.


Anonymous said...

Great insight! I wish it could be reversed!

Anonymous said...

I agree COMPLETELY with your comments Ken.

Here is a very important belief that I have about CCUC - that the ENTIRE deacon board (aka "elders"), its moderator and chairman needs to be replaced by a new group of people that are impartial and free from the sin of politics and pride. Here's why (I've directly taken the words below from a sermon on 1 Timothy 5:19-25 online which can be found at

1) To keep church leadership godly, elders must be disciplined
properly (5:19-21)

2) To keep church leadership godly, elders must be selected
carefully (5:22-25).

Deacons and trustees (elders/overseers) need to be held to the highest standards. It is obvious they have fallen victim to sin, and they should not go unpunished - from 1 Timothy 3.

A Former CCUC attendee and Member

Anonymous said...

just wanted to share in your venting. i have always wondered why there are more cantonese deacons and trustees than there are english deacons. i mean, we have about the same number of people who attend both services - so it should be proportional in representation. They even have a deacon emeritus (for life)! what the....becoming a deacon SHOULD NOT be considered a lifelong position. they need to be called to serve, not for their own selfish desires. I agree with the previous post - the deacon and trustee board needs to be replaced. Going further, the powers of the deacon and trustees should be reduced greatly to prevent power issues in church.

Hunter said...

Yes, I wish it could be reversed as well. It's really a sad state of affairs because you could tell who the folks were that were manipulating the meeting and how powerful they were. I wouldn't go as far as to say all the deacons should be replaced because it was through some of them that I found out what was going on. I had very good conversations with upstanding deacons, even a Cantonese deacon who did not agree with what was going to take place. I say "going to" because I told a friend today how I knew what was going to happen. I have been here long enough to realize weeks before what was trying to be done and how they were going to succeed under the guise of a "family" decision. There was nothing that was going to stop it, I knew that, I sat through the meeting yesterday praying for light to shine on the precedings but it was not to be.

Yes, I agree as well, the leaders should be held to a high standard but as we all know, we are just human, and even leaders must work on improving themselves as well. 1 Tim 3 was used against Pastor Green. I believe that was a "low blow" aimed at his immediate family rather than the church family. And once again, he did "seem" angry once in the past and raised his voice but that too was human weakness. Throughout all this, he's been perfectly composed and a better example than I would have been if I were in his shoes.

There was genuine hatred in the room. Back to what I said earlier, I don't believe you can make a blanket statement on all the deacons but I do admit, probably the best change would be for all of them to be removed and elections held again giving them the opportunity to run again. As a church, perhaps the "good" ones would be back and perhaps the "bad" would be gone.

None of them should be there for life though, who do they think they are? GOD? There's definitely a God complex with a few of them.

I could go on forever but I'll stop here. To all, feel free to keep posting comments. I think it will help in the healing process. For now though, pray for Pastor Green and his wife. They gave a lot to us no matter what some might think, they did their best as far as I can tell and I doubt they had seen this coming or prepared for anything else. They deserve better.

Anonymous said...

This was a "secret" facebook group that was created by someone that I had stumbled across by accident.....after I tried to search for the page a couple days later, it could not be found. Fortunately I saved the link on my computer. The actions of few will not be hidden. It will be exposed. Here is the link.

Now, I don't have a problem with this deacon as I understand his good intentions for our English Congregation; HOWEVER, lobbying for or against a person and also providing a scripted speech for members of a fellowship to memorize in anticipation of an AMA is wrong. I am sure the Cantonese deacons did the same thing to prepare their members for the AMA. Ultimately, a battle/heated exchanged at the AMA ensued.

It was done this time during the latest AMA, and it was done the same way 3 years ago for the pastor's confirmation. I was there.

That is why the entire deacon board needs to resign/submit to another round of elections.

This is politics - and I only say this with love to everyone...sin will be exposed. Everyone, from the pastor, to the deacons/trustees, and all members/attendees of the church need to be held accountable.

Anonymous said...

Does anybody remember the breakdown of the votes? I think I remember 46% voted agree.

Anonymous said...

Hey Ken,

Thanks for the insights on what happened at the meeting on Sunday. Agree with what you said about a lot of this. I think there are some deacons who were trying to speak the truth and help out but my guess, seeing how the Cantonese power base was acting, probably muzzled them in no uncertain terms. Clear double standards going on in this church - sin is rampant in the highest level - moderator and the Chairman of the Deacon Board especially. Was there a conspiracy? Seems pretty clear to me. The Cantonese power brokers are willing to SACRIFICE the ENTIRE English congregation in order to gain what they want, then tell the English to shut up and get in line. How is that godly or an example of the very Scripture they perverted and tried to use against Pastor Green. We can only pray that the Lord gives the English Congregation as a whole wisdom on how to deal with this situation in a way that honors God!

Anonymous said...

To the person who wrote about the secret facebook page: how do you know it was Robert Leong who wrote it? If one makes an accusation or assumption like this, then you'd better have proof! Otherwise, you're as guilty as the Cantonese congregation of gossip and slander. Knowing Robert personally, I don't think he knows how to get on facebook, let alone create a page like that! It is possible that someone else created it - maybe someone from Horizon fellowship?

Anonymous said...

regarding the post above, I never said that it was Robert who had written it.... I do not know who wrote it, that is why I said it was a "secret" facebook page, since there are no author's names listed. The page is not open for adding/joining.

So don't make any assumptions about something or about me, without reading my comments again. Don't put words into my mouth and accuse me of gossip and slander. I am not guilty of their sins - I am only pointing out the facts - I never created that facebook page. someone else did.

Look - I personally know Robert and all the deacons (English and Cantonese). And yes, lobbying did occur this time, AND during the time when the pastor was confirmed. I was there during the "process". You don't need to see a facebook page to prove it to me - but for all of you, yes you do.

Another point - I do not support the Cantonese Congregation and their actions - I have always supported Pastor Green and Robert. What I am writing here though is that actions taken by one or more deacons (i.e. lobbying or passing out scripts) are wrong, whether or not you support the pastor.

Think about it.

Anonymous said...

you're assuming it's someone from Horizon fellowship. how do you know that? It can be from anyone in the English Congregation. You know there are multiple's the one that Robert leads (reread the comments on the page if you haven't already). That's an assumption you're making so that's gossip and slander.

Anonymous said...

What happened on Sunday at the All Members assembly was completely despicable. I am sure that Jesus shed tears seeing His children behave like this. This is not the CCUC that I want to know...nor be a part of if this behavior by the Cantonese deacon board goes unchecked.

May God give all of us wisdom on what to do. I like being part of 3 different congregations but, right now, if someone asked for my vote, I would say that we, as an English congregation, should secede in protest and respectfully part ways from the Cantonese congregation.

Ken said...

Hey guys, pardon me as moderator for being away. I travelled to NY and i'll ve vacationing for the next few days.

I would like to ask that you all be respectful of eachother's feelings. One person posted something that did not attribute a FB site directly to Robert but did talk about the public support he did give to Dr Green at the horizon fellowship that did happen. I was there, i personally think he was trying more to make sure we all showed up or gave a frak about what was going on at our church and in his paper he gave out, it did seem like he was trying to gather support though. The exact same thing as Roman (i can say his name because i think it's fact at this point) did for 75 minutes at the AMA. For both sides, IMHO, that wasn't the right thing to do.

For the other person, who commented after, i do think your accusations were a bit stronger and more accusatory than the previous post deserved. Lets all try to keep civility so that we don't degenerate into what happened at the AMA, 2 sides who ultimately were arguing with each other and not listening or giving proper respect to eachother.

It's very easy here to do because tensions are high right now and most people are posting as anonymous which gives the impression that those posting are doing so in secret. I would like to suggest that we start using names but i won't hold anyone to that. I'm leaving this an open forum and you can state your name or not but i believe some of the discussion can be more helpful if we do give our names. I will say i have my theories from your speech patterns and previous facebook posts and messages to me. I believe we all know each other already. We are still a family under God and whether we know who is posting or not, lets remember we will see each other again at a church or "on the street." I think I can almost guarantee it. So respect eachother as we ARE all in one family.


One more comment from me, like the last poster, i entertained the thought of sucession and i even suggested it to a deacon, i wondered if we could split off and keep pastor Green somehow but i personally helped with some cantonese ministries and would sorely miss our brothers and sisters there. Perhaps the best course is to try to overcome this challenge or trial. As a friend told me today which is right, he just has to believe that God is leading us to something or someone greater. We can't hold one family or one man above God and His will will be done. The victory has already been written. Even Mrs Green has told me in different words that they know that already. It may be painful but they've got lots of experience that has shown them what to do and they will overcome. What an awesome attitude don't you think?

Technical note: Pardon the misspellings, i did this very quickly on my ipad and then had to find a pc because the stinky security codes are flash or were not recognized on the ipad by any browser (grrrr).

Hunter said...

ok, I admit, I don't really know some of the posters and i haven't thought about who posted, I'm not that type of person but it does feel different if you think someone knows you doesn't it? Have a great day! Prayin for ya!

Anonymous said...

Ken, Who am I? I am anonymous. HaHaHa!

Jean W said...

thanks ken for your thoughts...

it is very saddening and troubling to hear about what happened recently at ccuc. it is a church that i feel i grew most in my understanding of christian community, however, i've learned to recognize that nothing stays the same. the ccuc which i have cherished memories of is totally different from the one it is today.

we are finite beings, we cannot wrap our minds around what has happened or why God has allowed it. only God knows... and if he had allowed it, there must be a higher purpose.

we have to keep in mind that the church belongs to God and no one else - not the pastor, not the deacons, not the ministry leaders, not the church staff, not the long time members, not an exclusive group of people. and since it's his, he will take care of it. and when i say that, i say that with my mind on israel... he wasn't all nicey-nicey with them, he really gave them chances after chances to turn to him. and when they didn't, he did disciplined them. there were times when he didn't intervene when enemies came along. he didn't intervene in many circumstances... at times he didn't speak to them for a very long time...

the big question, which you don't have to answer on your blog (maybe send me an email) is what are you going to do about what's happened? how are you going to respond? i mean seriously, have you thought about it? besides the write about, vent a little to blow off some steam, pray for those who have been hurt by it... but really, what action are you going to take? i guess that's the big question for everyone at the english congregation...

Hunter said...

Hi Jean! I have no problems answering and answering here. I'll do that when I have more time later today ... busy vacation :) I did see a great comment from my friend Evan though.

"He who loves his dream of a community more than the Christian community itself becomes a destroyer of the latter."- D.BonHoeffer

Hunter said...

Hi Jean, you had a great question you asked me this morning. I'm finally getting around to giving you the answer.

As far as the English congregation goes, I don't know what individuals plan to do and I don't know what as a congregation they plan to do just yet, but I know what I'm going to do, I think that I'll be sticking around and helping through whatever changes need to be done in the next few months or years.

For me personally, I felt really offended by what happened at the AMA last Sunday. Although that's happened, I do have to remember that God is in control. It took a few days and a friend to bring that up and for me to hear it. I think there are rough times ahead. A lot of people feel hurt, offended, and betrayed. A lot of people and myself feel bad for Pastor Green as well.

I was there a few years back to help CCUC when Pastor Donald left, the church needs people to help in these times, and I think I'm going to continue to do that.

On top of all this that has happened, the English congregation is not the only congregation I've been a part of. I have helped with Cantonese ministries, gone to their concerts, and have enjoyed the fellowship of a lot of people in that congregation. As I mentioned earlier in a post or in a response, I would really miss their fellowship if I decided to leave the church. We are a family and no family is perfect, I know that from my own. I also have a lot of friends in the men's group and in my small group. I have a lot of other friends in the English congregation, Cantonese congregation, and Mandarin congregation. I think they deserve my help in this time as well, and I know they will help me with my feelings and views on the issue. God brought me to CCUC years ago, I left for a few months, and then came back.

I believe God has brought me here for the long haul and he has not shown me that I should go anywhere else yet. In a way, that's how the deacons should have taken Pastor Green's situation, his "call" to our church has not been recalled. Anyway, I've come to realize this is no reason to leave the family that I was brought to here in Chicago.

Hunter said...

John 17:20-21 (New International Version) Jesus Prays for All Believers 20"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.